The general appearance is fine for me. And very detailed.

I'd like to know how they got planning permission to build blocks of flats/offices in the countryside surrounding BW though.

But I do have the problem of a constant, small, juddering effect - like a regular vibration in the motion even though my PC easily stays above 60 fps i.e. it's not related to demand on the system at particular times. Doesn't happen with any other sim (with vsync on) and spoils it a bit for me. Using a Dell 2407.

Niels,

Perhaps someone could email you a replay + motec data of their accident, and you diagnose at you leisure whose fault it really was

Then you can post graphs of people's throttle/steering errors etc. and we can have a public humiliation ceremony for bad driving.

Motec:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthre ... /2556306/MOTEC_guide.html

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

This does influence part of the oversteer / catching 'sudden' ness but that might still not explain why some people spin 10x a lap and some drive 10 laps at 150% of the limit.

Thanks for the reply.
How about this?: a planned drift is manageable, as is backing off the throttle in an unexpected slide. But when keeping your foot in, countersteering alone doesn't correct even gentle power slides as it should do?

I've just watched a racing driver on TV hotlapping a Caterham on a wet track. He's shouting at himself "keep the power on" whilst making very fast steering corrections to keep it straight as the back stepped this way and that on a wet track. I don't think the steering works like that in ISI when the rear lets go -it's almost like the front wheels are sliding too instead of gripping and just the rear flapping around. To me, it doesn't even look right most of the time. More like the car is floating, moving about it's middle. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to say it's just lack of seat of pants feel and slow sim steering wheels. I think most ISI powersliding videos are just as much 4-wheel drifting, although people like to point the front wheels in the direction they're going and kid themselves they're steering it.

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

I really don't understand how people can't control oversteer in rFactor.. with certain cars.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAV-kehHrU8 It can even be used to go quickishly. :P

There's video of far more extravagant 'sliding' around Dijon than that in standard GTL. I've had cars completely sideways all around there but it doesn't address the problem that I alluded to in my previous post.

Any chance of answering my question about your mod therein BTW?

Also, it's quite easy to catch slides (in GTL and I assume rfactor) when the front wheels are onto grass or rumble strip. They become recoverable then. And for some reason, you can contrive long slides in certain places but spin out even at 20 mph when it happens unexpectedly. With your C6 around Brands, I had to be incredible gentle with acceleration in some places or I'd just (apparently) drive off the track like an idiot. Couldn't catch it even though I anticipated it might happen. Something is not right somewhere, and I suspect it's the core ISI physics.

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

I think at the moment I'm relatively happy with the Corvette C6 mod, provided you get the latest unofficial update at my crappy site http://geocities.com/n_heusink ... rphysics/physicsfiles.htm

I'd assumed that physics was experimental. Will give it a try.

Regarding the C6 version on rFactorcentral: I take it that that physics is improved since 2007 when the Brands Hatch hotlaps were done? - Because I was nearly half a second faster than the fastest using the default setup and fairly leisurely.

Lot of fun to drive the C6 and my favourite out of the few rFactor mods I've tried, but to be honest, to me it (the rfactorcentral version) still suffers with the ISI issue of the rear getting away and not correcting properly with countersteer. I end up making the usual stabbing overcorrections to catch it and then straightening up quickly before the snap-back (I'm on G25 with the right settings btw). The part of the ISI problem to me is that the snap-back happens without the initial lateral sliding motion slowing down properly first, which logically ought to happen before the rear wheels bite again surely? It's as though just as you notice the countersteer isn't doing what it should do, and you give more, the bugger snaps back the opposite way completely unexpectedly. Bloody annoying. Is that intrinsically incurable with the core physics?

I have the profiler settings recommended in the LFS manual. Which also apply to GTL successfully.

I've ended up turning the *in game* FF down to 40 because it was so strong it was ridiculous. I normally have these sort of things set high.

I also uninstalled the logitech gaming software and reinstalled the recent, newest version. No difference.

Something's wrong somewhere.

What information should the wheel be sending me in LFS?

G25 here. This is what I get (XRG):

Stationary, there's hardly any resistance. Building speed the wheel gets stiffer. Tail slides cause the wheel to counter spin on it's own. Some slight vibrations on some curby bits. Otherwise it's just a fairly consistent resistance that's proportional to speed.

I get no real discernable lightening of force from any actual events (other than being stationary). And I find it impossible to detect the rear end letting go until it's too late - by the world rotating and sound. Experimenting in circles in the car park, I can maybe just about convince myself of a minuscule change in resistance to break induced understeer.

I think I was getting more information than this more from a previous patch.

I have the recommended profiler settings.

I haven't tried rFactor yet. I see people in this forum calling it arcade-like. But it's interesting that Sean Edwards:

http://www.seanedwards.eu/index.php?p=Getcontent&catid=3

is much involved with rFactor and says: "rFactor is the best out there by far". He's described LFS as just "OK"?

Bunch of comedians!

I patched successfully from X to Y, but after going from Y to Z, the computer froze running it. So I want to uninstall LFS completely and do a new installation. But I can't find an uninstall file - LFS doesn't appear in the list of programmes (everything else does) - and isn't listed in "add or remove programmes".

Any bright ideas?

Hmmm. I might need councilling after that.

I hear you, BTW.

Yes, if I do try again with LFS, I'd probably do a reinstall.

My 8800 temperature, according to rivatuner, was 72 degrees after hours of non-stop GTL. So fans/dust isn't the problem. CPU temps fine too.

Nvidia drivers (Forceware 175.16) are only a couple of months old, and Nvida drivers are notoriously dodgy so it's common for people to roll back to one that's worked well/better. I can't see how this total configuration which works with everything else can be at fault. But I'm open to plausible theories.

Re: online racing; begging the question about the intelligence of human on-line racers (from what I hear anyway), I accept that's not LFS's main purpose. But the AI is there, and pretty pointless compared with GTL's, with whom you can actually have some fun with yourself..so to speak.

Already had patch X-Y installed. Installed Y-Z, initially had one XRG race, no problem. Yesterday had one race in XFG, then switched to XRG but the screen froze at the lights going green. Computer completely locked - ctrl+alt+del no affect. Had to power off. No errors recorded in Event Viewer logs.

Patches X and Y, GTL, RBR, Fear etc. no problems.

The engine sounds are still abysmal (kills immersion for me), the AI still punt you off (that's the two reasons I won't pay), and I don't want a stable PC sent to cr*p while trying to solve this. Think this may well be it for me I'm afraid.


XP Pro.
Abit IN9 32-Max
XFX 8800 GTX 768MB
Intel E6700 core duo 2.67GHz
2G Corsair Twinx DDR2 6400C4
2x500G Seagate SATA2
X-fi Fatality
850W Enermax PSU
Dell 2407WFP (1920x1200x32)
No overclocking
G25

Probably best thing for confirmation is to get you in the real FBM too so we can compare your wet T-shirt (ahem, I mean er...for technical rigour and that).

Quote from Becky Rose :

well disclaimer first, i've raced a single seater but my endurance experience is only in karts. tbh, the stuff Scawen is talking about sounded to me mostly like a setup issue, of course I wasnt there and wasnt driving it but from what he's saying it's like the car was too pointy and tight for him. A little toe out or castor adjustment may have made his driving experience less exhausting?

When a car is setup well and you're dialed in it drives easily and smoothly. It can be a bit rickety in a single seater as those things aren't exactly built like Bentleys, but it's a comfortable experience. When the setup isnt right it's like trying to tow a lorry with a tug-o-war rope and your only help is 2 members of the Swedish national syncronised swimming team, it's hard work and way more drama than it should be.

Until you've experienced your race car on a good day you'll never know quite what to make your setup aim for.

Well, when Tiff Niddell drove a few laps in a current F1 car he was totally shagged out; arms jelly and could hardly hold his head up. As a racing driver he had the skill to go fast but not the fitness any more. It's not just the force through the wheel (which is what confuses me a bit about Scawen's comments about amounts of FFB) is it? It's all the G-forces at high speed acting on your whole body including your arms that as Brundle says "suck the energy out of your body", even though this is nothing like as extreme as F1.

Quote from Inouva :

You got a g25

I got a s2 licesnse

More to say?

Didn't anyone tell you not to feed the trolls.

FWIW, I'm a 'conscientious objector'. They've fixed the clutch to my satisfaction, which I'm pleased about - although I still can't get it 'up to temperature' the way some manage to . But until the AI's respectable, I'm not buying it. That's what I want fixing.

The 'end of a tunnel' engine sounds are a real downer for me too compared to GTL (although not a deal breaker).

From doing it a lot on GT4 and EPR, I thought it was rubbish for racing; no room. The whole fun is that knowing the right lines determines the difference between "death" and a good time. Or Jeremy and Sabine. (Cultural reference for the Brits).

It is a great track. And most RL racers do seem to like driving fast cars fast, not just racing. It's a shame though.

Maybe he was 'just' being racist.

I've got a G25.:eclipseeh

Maybe, if some object this strongly to seeing "G25", then we could just use an "S" (for sim) in the name instead; to distinguish the actual "Sim Drivers" with proper controls from all the gamers. :ufo:

Did I mention I've got a G25? :thumb3d:

CCleaner according to the guy who writes Tweakguides shouldn't be used for uninformed registry cleaning; he strongly advises against that, preferring regcleaner for *that* particular job.

Unfortunately, RegCleaner doesn't work with dual cores. There's a possible solution but involves system file tampering.

There's a free one called easycleaner (toniarts), which my research suggests is relatively safe on the registry when you don't know what you're doing. It's got good reviews from 2 sober sources. But don't use it's other delete duplicate file function unless you know what you're doing.

Been looking into this myself recently so..

Almost certain my Dell LCD is fixed at 60 hz 'refresh rate' (or whatever it's called).

The jerkiness I see in LFS isn't car vibration. When you watch from the outside, you can see a slight effect as they go past. And in the car you see it most in certain areas of scenery being shifted fast even on a straight. And it doesn't happen with GTL nor GTR2.

I have an LCD too (Dell 2407) and every driving sim will tear as the scenery whizzes past, for example on tight bends. So I always have Vsync on too. And yes, I also find LFS movement a tad jerky compared with GTL, GTR2, or tomb raider for that matter. My system's reasonably good (below) and the processor's hardly doing anything according to task manager in LFS, whereas it's working hard with the others, so I don't know why.

Have you got triple buffering going? If your graphics card is Nvidia I assume you need something like d3doverrider with LFS (as you do with GTL etc.) which comes with rivatuner (free) to force that or you'll lose frames when your fps drops below 60..but you did say 'at 60' so probably not that.


Abit IN9 32X-MAX
Intel E6700 core duo 2.67GHz
XFX 8800 GTX 768MB
Corsair Twinx 2GN DDR2 6400C4
2x500G Seagate SATA2
850W Enermax EGA850EWL PSU
X-fi Fatality
Dell 2407WFP (1920x1200x32) VGA 60Hz
XP Pro.

Regarding the G25: the problem is that it's near impossible to maintain the same breaking control i.e. threshold of locking, while blipping as when not. I've modded mine with a wooden block under the break pedal pad, thus bringing them closer when breaking and at the moment of the blip. But it would also be easier if the break pressure varied rather than having to rely on position to judge. If you haven't a decent seat then watch yer back folks!

FWIW, the effect of not h&t-ing in LFS is much less than GTL - where at racing speeds and aggressive changing, the car will likely swap ends without h&t; you certainly get a real kick up the back end changing without matching revs first. I don't know which is more true to real life.

Quote from deggis :

If it helps, pretty much every sim is as good (or bad) in clutch simulation. Mostly because before G25, not many players had a clutch pedal in the first place, so there wasn't basicly a need for better clutch sim. Though LFS is lacking even a bit more in this area, like no stalling that many other sims does have. But if you're looking for a sim with superior clutch feature, the answer is that there isn't one.

But LFS lets you totally screw up the timing of clutch, gear stick and accelerator (G25), i.e. wrong order, with no ramifications. Only when I go from from LFS to GTL, does it become apparent.

Well, I'm a demo player but I'm afraid I don't see the need for this either. Would have thought someone could tell from the demo whether it was for them. Main reason I haven't upgraded yet is it's and excuse to complain about some issues...did I mention the clutch and the AI? :hidesbehi

Actually, the demo is so good that if the AI could drive I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't bother to upgrade.